Photometric slit for Alpy

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Francois Cochard
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:30 pm

Photometric slit for Alpy

Post by Francois Cochard »

Hello all,

(version française en bas de ce message)

As you know, Christian Buil showed impressive results on atmosphere transmission measurement (http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/atmospher ... ission.htm) and precise instrumental response characterization (http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/isis/guid ... method.htm).
He also showed that both atmospheric dispersion and chormatic effects of the optics have impacts on spectral measurements.
http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/dispersion/atmo.htm

In the same time, we forsee that Alpy spectroscope could be a very good candidate to open new fields in spectro-photometry measurements.
In few words, at this time, spectroscopy (amateur) measurements are mainly relative, not absolute.
Some applications - like variable stars observations - require real photometry in our spectra... this is spectro-photometry.

To further investigate this area, Christian suggested to make a special slit for Alpy - called photometric slit. This special step-slit is made of two parts : one thin (like current Alpy slits), and one wide:
slit.png
slit.png (115.66 KiB) Viewed 4910 times
With such a slit, you can work in two step. The thin slit allows "full resolution" (ie the max resolution for the instrument), and the wide slit allows to get the full light coming from the star (like in slitless mode), and make photometric measurements.

... a prototype is under test for some days, and it seems to be promising !
For sure, Christian will publish soon the first results he gets.

My personnal first impression is that behind the ability to make very accurate measurements (this is a little bit complex however :>), this slit is very demonstrative for beginners - we see immediately the effect of a slit, and we can measure simply which percentage of light come through the slit. It should be a mandatory skill for any "serious" observer (:>).

Stay tuned !

François

------------------------------------------

Comme vous le savez, Christian Buil a montré des résultats impressionnants sur la mesure de la transmission atmosphérique (http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/atmospher ... ission.htm) et sur une caractérisation précise de la réponse instrumentale (http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/isis/guid ... method.htm).
Il a aussi montré que la dispersion atmosphérique et les effets chromatiques de l'optique ont un impact fort sur les mesures spectrales : http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/dispersion/atmo.htm

En même temps, on sent bien que Alpy est un bon candidat pour ouvrir un nouveau champ d'étude dans le domaine de la spectro-photométrie.
Jusqu'à maintenant, la spectroscopie amateur est essentiellement faite de mesures relatives. Mais certaines applications - par exemple autour des étoiles variables - requièrent de faire de la mesure photométrique au sein des spectres - c'est la spectro-photométrie.

Pour explorer ce domaine, Christian nous a suggérer de réaliser une fente particulière, dite photométrique. Il s'agit d'une fente étagée, faite de deux parties : une partie fine (comme la fente standard de Alpy) et une partie large :
slit.png
slit.png (115.66 KiB) Viewed 4910 times
Avec une telle fente, on peut travailler en deux temps. La fente étroite permet de profiter de la pleine résolution de l'instrument, et la fente large permet d'enregistrer la totalité du flux venant de l'étoile (comme en mode sans fente) - et donc de faire des mesures photométriques.

... Un protoype est en test depuis quelques jours, et cela semble prometteur !
Christian devrait publier rapidement les premiers résultats qu'il a obtenus avec ce nouveau système.

Mon impression personnelle est que derrière la capacité de faire des mesures très précises (au prix toutefois d'une complexité réelle), cette fente a un aspect pédagogique important. On comprend immédiatement l'effet d'une fente dans l'image, et on peut mesurer simplement le pourcentage du flux de l'étoile qui passe dans la fente - c'est un exercice que chaque observateur "sérieux" devrait faire absolument (:>).

A suivre !

François
Christian Buil
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:59 pm
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Re: Photometric slit for Alpy

Post by Christian Buil »

First test, evaluation and applications of spectrophotometric Shelyak slit here:

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/alpy600/p ... c_slit.htm

Here a typical application on a very recent observation of RR Lyrae
with a Celestron 9.25 telescope and an Alpy spectrograph:

Image

The RVB pseudo chanel are taken in the same time (thanks to spectrography)
and with a 0,01 mag. precision, or better (thanks photometry).

Probably a world premiere for amateur in spectrophotometric mode.

You can imagine numerous applications, for example instrumentation tests,
education... (I agree with Francois comments).

=============================================================================

Une page qui montre quelques possibilités de cette nouvelle fente Shelyak pour Alpy:

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/alpy600/p ... c_slit.htm

C'est une fonction avancée nouvelle pour nos spectrograhes.
L'usage est assez pointu actuellement (ca va ce simplifier), mais c'est compensé par le champ
d'applications. Je pense que c'est un accessoire interessent. On ne fait
qu'en découvrir les premières possibilités. Francois à raison : cela peut même
aider à prendre en main un spectrographe. Je montrerais aussi comment
on peut s'en servir pour mesurer la performance des instruments.
Et puis il y a votre immagination.

En attendant, regardez bien l'observation photométrique de RR Lyre.
Cette observations est surement une première mondiale dans un tel mode
pour des amateurs (on dispose de très nombreux canaux spectraux, pas
que du UBVR...). C'est une autre manière de faire de la photométrie
(rendez-vous compte que c'est un spectro qui est derrière ces courbes :) ).

Ca ce met en place en une ou deux minutes sur un Alpy

Christian B
Robin Leadbeater
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:41 pm
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Re: Photometric slit for Alpy

Post by Robin Leadbeater »

Christian Buil wrote:
Probably a world premiere for amateur in spectrophotometric mode.
Well perhaps not quite ;-)
http://www.threehillsobservatory.co.uk/ ... ra_42a.htm
(differential flux measurements using a slitless Star Analyser setup)
though I did not take the final step and express the results in standard photometric passbands

Cheers
Robin
LHIRES III #29 ATIK314 ALPY 600/200 ATIK428 Star Analyser 100/200 C11 EQ6
http://www.threehillsobservatory.co.uk
Keith Graham
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:20 pm

Re: Photometric slit for Alpy

Post by Keith Graham »

Hi All,

This double slit sounds like a remarkable addition to the ALpy600. Simultaneous spectroscopy/photometry has always been one of my goals. One of my reasons for buying the Alpy6000 was to enable me to take spectra of stars dimmer than I could get with my Lhires III. But a couple of questions come to mind.

1. Since I have 2 scopes in observatories, my plan is to use one scope for photometric measurements while simultaneously taking spectra with the other scope using the Alpy600. Would using the double slit have advantages over the 2 scope approach besides being able to use just 1 scope instead of 2?

2. If I understand correctly, using the double slit would require moving the target back and forth from wide to narrow slit. Is this true? If this is the case, then the images would not be simultaneous but instead alternating. Would this have any effect on the accuracy of the measurements? For example, might a short burst occurring during a photometric exposure of 300-600 seconds be missed on the spectrum?

Cheers,

Keith Graham
Christian Buil
Posts: 1432
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:59 pm
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Re: Photometric slit for Alpy

Post by Christian Buil »

It is quite difficult to achieve both spectral and photometric measurements alternately. The idea
is not quite that. The photometric slit section is used for special operations, such as the measurement
of atmospheric extinction, photometric monitoring at low spectral resolution, or for precise the spectral response ...

For example, for the instrumental response:

- Spectra are made with fine slits (18, 23 microns). The sequences can of long duration.
- At the end, we made ​​a quick spectrum by using the wide slit (180, 230 microns) to obtain the continuum
and for get a true magnitude point.

The use of large slit can be also more complex because the spectral calibration is less precise.

So, use of two telescopes continue to be a good idea for routine works...

Christian B
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